[eu-gene] eu-gene Digest, Vol 105, Issue 24
Celestino Soddu
celestino.soddu at polimi.it
Mon Jan 16 07:26:07 GMT 2012
Dear Laurie,
Thank you for your note.
Yes, I agree that the vision must be unique together with recognizable
results. And the artworks, made in different contexts, have to bring a
strong identity of the subjective vision of the artist.
The matter is that, too many times, the subjective approach is
underestimated and, sometimes, denied.
Celestino
-----Messaggio originale-----
From: Laurie Spiegel
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:05 PM
To: eu-gene at generative.net
Subject: Re: [eu-gene] eu-gene Digest, Vol 105, Issue 24
Hi all. I am new to this list, but it's a subject I've been deeply involved
in for a long time and I'm quite pleased to see these discussions, so will
take the liberty of jumping in once in while, time permitting.
Celestino Soddu wrote "If many people appreciate and recognize a particular
vision in different results of the same artist, the artist is a great
artist."
I would qualify that further. The above may be a definition of an artistic
style, but to be greadoration I would think the personal vision need to be
unique, and to be used and be found to be identifiably, in a significant
variety of contexts, applications, subject matters, materials, magnitudes
and/or other dimensions of variety (rather than just in a series of nearly
identical minute variations), and also it has to be wanted and liked.
With those additional qualifications, yes, I'd agree that the same criteria
could be applied to generative processes as to artists.. But would those
processes be "great art" or only "great generative methods"? I'd suspect
most of us know from experience that the same logic can produce awesome or
insipid aesthetic results depending on the details of how it is applied in
each specific instance. So the "art" per se may reside more so in the end
product than the means of production, and the process be simply a more
sophisticated tool than is traditionally used - an additional tool that can
be used well or used badly.
Yes, a process can be a work of art in itself, but not all processes are. It
is partly a question of the creator's ability to embody a subjective vision,
but also a question of the depth, universality, comprehensiveness and
subtlety of the relationships codified in the process implementation,
combined with the human artist's personal choices as to how the process is
and is not applied. This last is certainly a part of what imposes a personal
vision on a body of process-generated work.
Fun stuff to think about, and to clarify our thoughts about by talking to
each other.
- Laurie (by iPad)
On Jan 15, 2012, at 11:39 AM, eu-gene-request at generative.net wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Software / generative / whatever (Rob Myers)
> 2. Re: Software / generative / whatever (Celestino Soddu)
> 3. Re: Software / generative / whatever (list at philipgalanter.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:19:02 +0000
> From: Rob Myers <rob at robmyers.org>
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
> To: eu-gene at generative.net
> Message-ID: <4F12C436.6040905 at robmyers.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 15/01/12 09:11, Philip Galanter wrote:
>>
>> I have a pet theory I hope to develop further at some point. It's
>> that what we think of as disciplines are social constructions that emerge
> from a lower level. This lower level has to do with what I call "modes
> of encounter," i.e. the fundamental ways the self interacts with the
> non-self.
>
> Society as a TCP stack? :-)
>
> - Rob.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:21:11 +0100
> From: "Celestino Soddu" <celestino.soddu at polimi.it>
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
> To: "generative art" <eu-gene at generative.net>
> Message-ID: <AFC953418979443982F6131B3C2917EE at argenia>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Because in Art we need to recognize the subjective vision of the artist.
> If there is not a vision, a subjective interpretation of the world, it?s
> not Art.
> If many people appreciate and recognize a particular vision in different
> results of the same artist, the artist is a great artist.
> An installation, a piece of music, a song, but also an architecture, a
> poem, an animation, and so on, can be Art if there is a subjective
> interpretation of the world and if many people, looking at different
> ?artworks? of the same artist can recognize the vision that is common in
> all his artworks. As happens for Van Gogh, for the Beatles, for Andy
> Warhol, for Pollock, for Mozart.
> Which Generative Artworks (multiple variations generated by a created
> process) do you recognize as belonging to a peculiar artist? To an
> identifiable subjective vision performed as generative process?
> If so, this is Generative Art.
> If not, it is only generative design, generative graphic, generative
> music, generative installation, generative ...
> Celestino Soddu
>
> From: isjtar
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:21 PM
> To: generative art
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
>
> seriously?
> music instead of art? installations instead of art?
> if you can't recognize the artist it's not art?
>
> if this weren't such a civilized list, I'd accuse you of trolling :)
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2012, at 09:20, Celestino Soddu wrote:
>
>
> Design, as many other fields of creative activities, could be Art if
> there is a ?recognizable? subjective Vision.
> If the vision is not recognizable and if it?s impossible to recognize the
> artist identity, the result is only design (or music, or images, or
> installations, or robots, and so on), also if a wonderful design.
> Celestino Soddu
>
> From: John Clavin
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:47 AM
> To: eu-gene at generative.net
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
>
> Marius, If we take your piece "abstract01" (that I happen to think is a
> very nice work), do you really think anyone here, or yourself, can say if
> this is art or design? Or determine as to whether or not you are an artist
> or an enthusiast?
>
>
> Maybe we should start counting lines of code? Or consider the environment
> of the finished work, if it ends up in an art gallery we will call it art,
> but if it ends up in a Hyatt hotel lobby then it is design.
>
>
> John Clavin
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marius Watz <amoeba at evolutionzone.com>
> To: generative art <eu-gene at generative.net>
> Sent: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 10:23 pm
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
>
>
> Ok, so I might be guilty of elitism - but not in the sense only in the
> sense that I rarely find great value in the work of someone who has dug up
> sample code for a standard algorithm (i.e. tiling / L-systems / circle
> packing / Voronoi) and applied it with predictable results. To do so is
> perfectly valid as a personal exploration or part of a process of learning
> or simply as an expression of the enjoyment of Making - but it rarely
> makes for great art.
>
> To say that such activities are on a par with Sol Lewitt's body of work
> would seem an extravagant exercise in egalitarianism. This doesn't
> preclude the chance that an "enthusiast" (known elsewhere as an "Outsider
> Artist" - although those are usually a little crazy) might produce a thing
> of great beauty, but it's certainly less likely. More probable is the rise
> of artists outside the conventional mechanisms of art schools and gallery
> world, personally I have no art degree to my name so I would be foolish to
> imply that one was needed.
>
> However, I do think most people who has followed the field for a while
> can discern between art and design, between enthusiast and professional
> artist. The former is a matter of intention, the latter is a matter of
> depth and vision. If there is no way to discern differences then the
> entire notion of an art field is moot.
>
> Having said that, I totally agree about assigning relative value to art
> and design. That's like saying that apples are inherently inferior to
> oranges. The point is not that one is better - the point is that they are
> completely different practices, achieving different ends by different
> means.
>
> -m
>
>
>
> On 6/01/12 22:17, John Clavin wrote:
> Statements like: "Art is....." and "Design is less important than art"
> and "Some are enthusiasts and some are artists" are making me want to go
> to another planet.
>
>
> Can anyone here look at a work of generative art and tell if the artist
> was an artist or an enthisiast? Or if the work is design and not art.
>
> What kind of an elitist group is this! Who are we to judge what is art?
>
>
> John Clavin
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Gogins mailto:michael.gogins at gmail.com
> To: generative art mailto:eu-gene at generative.net
> Sent: Fri, Jan 6, 2012 7:15 am
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
>
>
> Design is less important than art, because design depends upon and
> presupposes art. Art is what creates the template for "the human
> world." Design fills out the template.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Philip Galanter <list at philipgalanter.com>
> wrote:
>> Absolutely Rob. I don't mean to be elitist in these comments at all. And
>> for
> that matter I have nothing but respect for great design. It's different
> than
> art, but no less difficult or important.
>>
>> I guess the point I was making was that at this point, at least in the
>> digital
> realm, the making of generative art has gotten in front of the thinking
> about
> generative art. And so more should be done to nurture criticism, theory,
> and
> history work related to generative art. What can we do to make that
> happen?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:12 PM, Rob Myers wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/01/12 17:33, Marius Watz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Most of the work is by enthusiasts, not artists,
>>>
>>> (Generative) Art For All! :-)
>>>
>>> - Rob.
>>> --
>>> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
>>> face.'
>>> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
>>> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
>>
>> --
>> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
>> face.'
>> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
>> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
> --
> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
> face.'
> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////
> Marius Watz
>
> New web site: http://mariuswatz.com
> Silk screen prints: http://randomnumber.nu/?cat=21
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////
> http://twitter.com/mariuswatz
> http://twitter.com/generatorx
> http://flickr.com/photos/watz--
> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
> face.'
> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
> face.'
> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
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> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
> face.'
> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
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>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
> face.'
> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:39:36 -0600
> From: "list at philipgalanter.com" <list at philipgalanter.com>
> Subject: Re: [eu-gene] Software / generative / whatever
> To: generative art <eu-gene at generative.net>
> Cc: "eu-gene at generative.net" <eu-gene at generative.net>
> Message-ID: <FA8B3E24-A5D1-4D18-8E62-7D03383B675C at philipgalanter.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Understanding society is a piece of cake if you consider its layers.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 15, 2012, at 6:19 AM, Rob Myers <rob at robmyers.org> wrote:
>
>> On 15/01/12 09:11, Philip Galanter wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a pet theory I hope to develop further at some point. It's
>>> that what we think of as disciplines are social constructions that
>>> emerge
>> from a lower level. This lower level has to do with what I call "modes
>> of encounter," i.e. the fundamental ways the self interacts with the
>> non-self.
>>
>> Society as a TCP stack? :-)
>>
>> - Rob.
>> --
>> 'In this forum this kind of thrown egg is likely to land on your own
>> face.'
>> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
>> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> --
> '"generative" is where you lose control of a machine which does exactly
> what you tell it'
> To unsubscribe from eu-gene visit
> http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene
>
> End of eu-gene Digest, Vol 105, Issue 24
> ****************************************
>
--
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